Wading Through the Fall Spawn with XicanxFly
Speaking of spawning trout.
What’s up during this season? Can we wade? Should we fish? If so, how? All of these questions and more discussed with fishing guide and amigx Marco Kamimura-Palacios from Xicanx Fly.
Visit www.XicanxFly.com to learn more about Marco’s work, the spawning season (check out his blog!), and to snatch some rad flies.
Exploring Responsibly is 100% self-funded and generosity-powered. At this time, I am only able to offer each guest the equivalent of a cup of coffee for their time. So please go and check out their work and ways in which you can support them - all relevant links can be found in the show notes. If you want to support this space further you can also become a Patreon at patreon.com/gabaccia .
I once more want to thank you for being here,
Gabaccia
The following conversation transcript was generated using an AI service and with very slight human editing, which means there may be parts that do not make sense, have typos, etc. In the ideal world, we would have all the means to make our transcripts more accessible and completely human-proofed. Coming soon.
TRANSCRIPT
Gabaccia 0:23
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the first ever episode of Exploring Responsibly. I am super excited about today's conversation with Marco from Xicanxfly. So right now, we're just waiting for them to log in so that we can get started. Hello. It's so good to see you. Thanks for joining in.We're just in the... Here you go.Hey, here's Marco just sitting in. Hello. Okay, let me see how do I remove this image now that you're in? As we're learning this new process. Okay. Awesome. Well, thanks for joining me today, Marco. And thank you, everyone else who's joining us as well. My name is Gabaccia. And this is Exploring Responsibly a new series of conversations about accountability in how we recreate around nature but also in our relationship with the world. And I am beyond honored to have Marco from Xicanxfly be my first-ever guest on this conversation so that we can talk about trout spawning season and how can we responsibly fish these days as anglers. So, before we officially dive into this conversation, I would like to take a moment to acknowledge the indigenous peoples who have stewarded the land that I am on today. Who are the Pueblo people the and the Jicarilla Apache people in here in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And Marco, if you could share with us as well.
Marco 2:47
Yeah, where I'm at here in Grinnell, Iowa. These are ancestral lands of Iowa, Sauk and Meskwaki, and Očhéthi Šakówiŋ people.
Gabaccia 3:01
Thank you so much. And everyone who's joining us today, feel free to chime in in the chat, let us know where you're joining in from, where our little virtual circle is today, so okay, so moving into today's conversation. First of all, I just want to ask you, Marco, to introduce yourself and tell us who you are, what you do, what, what's your passion?
Marco 3:32
Sure. So my name is Marco Kamimura. I am a senior in college, actually, and a professional fly fishing guide here and in Iowa. I concentrate in the Iowa Driftless region. So it's the Northeast region of Iowa. But I'm currently a college student at Grinnell College, which is about while our closest trout stream, the closest edge of the Driftless is about two hours from the corner south of Minnesota, southwest of Wisconsin, part of Illinois and Iowa, northeast Iowa. And it's a pretty special geologic region and that it was kind of skipped over by glacial the, you know, glaciation at the end of the last ice age. And, like, you know, the Great Plains were scoured by, you know, glaciers, the driftless region was skipped by glacial drift, which is why it's called driftless. Part of it, there are parts that are still considered the driftless that are now found pieces of evidence that that glaciers did come through, but for the most part, it's all still considered the driftless region.
Gabaccia 5:02
Cool!
Marco 5:02
Obviously, like fishing.
Gabaccia 5:07
That makes sense. What are you studying in college right now?
Marco 5:12
Um, I'm a biology major, with a focus in aquatic ecology.
Gabaccia 5:21
Fabulous.. So before we get into the whole spawning stuff, I want to ask you, what does exploring responsibly mean to you?
Marco 5:33
Sure, to me, it means a lot of things, it means acknowledging our people before us. It means acknowledging our culture like, and when we're out there, and understanding. Like, I guess we are in risk, you know, in respect to the land that we're engaging with, as well as all the people around us. And the people that join us and all that are unseen. in those communities, many we go on to say, where I go to, you know, rural Iowa, northeast Iowa, you know, those communities, engage with that land in a different way, because of their proximity, and be respectful and responsible when I'm there, because those are, you know, areas that will... So, record in that way, I think, is a really important piece for me, when I visit those places, I'm a visitor and I need to understand that.
Gabaccia 6:56
Thank you so much for sharing. So just to give everyone who's here a little background on today's conversation, Marco posted something about spawning and how to identify the nests of the trout. And he was like, if you have questions, please feel free to DM me, I'm glad to talk about it. So I was like, can we talk about it in public so that more folks can learn? So and I know full disclaimer, Marco, what you'll be speaking about today is very specific to the waters that you fish in Iowa, but it can also give us some sort of framework to find our own information for local waters, is that correct?
Marco 7:38
Correct. And I appreciate you bringing that up, because it's really important. Our fish are so different, even watershed to watershed, they are vast, depending on where you're at. And so, it's very important to recognize that how you treat one watershed, you know, from a regulation standpoint, and that's actually I'll add to that, you know, add to your last. Plus, you know, referee onset, oh, self governance, in a very real way from an ecological management standpoint, is huge. You know, has its, it's old, and it's very gentle. And it's not very good at addressing the specificities that need to be addressed from an individual watershed standpoint. States like Minnesota and Wisconsin have done a lot better job by in my opinion. And again, I'm in my 21 years of life, you know, but I've only in the past few years have I actually gained academic knowledge. And I've even been this person experience being in the resort, right being on the land, like more and more and more like I, you know, being a guide has put me on the water every week, you know, I'm a student during the week, during the week, it's given me a very different perspective. And come to realize that the top mile of a stream versus the middle two miles or one Ben to the next, right, I mean, in a really very real way are super, super, super different. And the way we manage those has to be the way we consider our individual management, right? And how we break it up activities, right? Has to be engaged and in unit and with that knowledge. And so yeah, like Minnesota and Wisconsin, the actual will section off different areas, they, okay, that's really or this has a lower limit or this has a slot limit for the slot limit being you know, you can only keep fish, either in this range or outside of this range, right? 12 to six or only that size, or you cannot fish smaller than 12 are larger than 16. Right? So there are really complicated. I want to add, I don't know, I, to some people starting to come to the understanding, right? Of what these mean, it is complicated, right? But when you are actually you're engaging with the the land, you know, it makes a lot of sense. It's like, Oh, yeah, yeah, this yeah, this place is struggling right now, you know. Now, what I wish they would do is actually can right to change those regulations on an annual if not seasonally, seasonal based. But, you know, it would be, but we're, you know, trying to work towards that. You will change dynamic, a dynamic system is really important, in my opinion, I think that's a huge part of recreating responsibly as an angler, right? Is to have your own set of, of self governing. Right morals, I guess, I don't know, like it's
Gabaccia 11:10
Right.
Marco 11:12
And that with, like, experience and knowledge, I suppose. So, being educated around what you want, for what you're into what you're doing, I think is really important, and doing your best to be formed about it. Obviously, none of us will ever know everything. And that's, that's fine. Yeah.
Gabaccia 11:31
No, I agree. And like you were saying, All these things are complicated, especially to a newcomer. And that's why I was like, very interested when I saw your posts, because I know. I, I was, you know, I was fishing last fall. Nobody, and I'm normally pretty good at like, doing a little bit of research. But there are some things that you just don't know, what you don't know. And you don't even know where to start searching. So that's why I really appreciate having this conversation with you today. Because this year, when I go back into water during the season, I really want to be informed and want to have some vocabulary to also empower other folks with that knowledge that may, you know, be newer to, to the, to the tradition of fishing.
Marco 12:25
Absolutely. And I, I can't, I can't speak to that enough, you know, in my, of having somebody to talk to I mean, growing up in, in, I would say an urban Michigan, like I didn't have any friends that fly fished. And those that I knew that fished weren't very ethical. And so I didn't really hang out with them much. And so it was really kind of Yeah, difficult to find that relationship with somebody that we could grow together, right? Like, okay, you, you know, some stuff, I don't know, I know, some stuff you don't know, and let's put it together. And we're gonna keep building off of this. And so in the last in my college years, I've found some of those when it's been awesome. And they've really, really helped me grow and a lot of ways and it's, it's been, it's a beautiful thing, right? When I don't know when you when you're able to find those bonds and relationships to grow with people.
Gabaccia 13:30
Right, right, right. So why, since we're on this topic of responsibility, kind of in general, I also wanted to bring up the name of your business, which is Xicanxfly, and I just wanted you to be able to share a little bit about the background on that and the why behind that name and what it means.
Marco 13:50
Yeah, so to me, I mean, it's a big part of my identity, I am of my descent, as well as Okinawan as well as living and many others that I probably don't know about right now. And I'm so you can have right or my that was a huge part like growing up. I grew up in a predominantly Mexican like Chicano old, like my grandparents were immigrants here from Baja California, and my great grandfather was actually a hunting guide. And so, that is the that's the main reason I fish. I mean, I maybe started at 10 or eight. For him, also fishing and guiding gave him enough to send all 10 of his kids to school. To get an education, because moving was in that thing. And so he had eight daughters and two sons and his eldest son is my grandfather and my toto, and he is my grandfather's, the one that taught me to fish. And so that's how I started. And in a very real way fishing was the the way in guiding was the way that my grandfather got here, through his education. So the reason he was able to come to the United States and get work, do you know, actually get a pretty decent job and go to college here and stuff like that. So it's a really big part of my story. And so I wanted to value that, that story, and who I am, through that name of being Chicano, but also recognizing my indigenous history through that lineage of my family. So we know that we have ancestry and that is indigenous, as well as in southern Baja California. And so that is where the accident, it comes from. You know, and now that's why I also put the pronunciation as "S," "H". "C," "H" does not exist in the Mexica language. And certainly because X is non binary for inclusiveness and an openness and love for all people to join me and join us on the water. And on the landers, everyone should be able to.
Gabaccia 16:46
Ah, that's, that's just fabulous. I, I really appreciate it. I appreciate that you brought so much of your ancestry and your personal identity into your business. And that, I think we've talked about this before, but how it's also a great conversation started and, and for everybody that gets to be guided by you, they get a little piece of culture, that it's probably not what they would normally expect out of a fishing trip. So it's kind of like a bonus cultural points.
Marco 17:24
To me, it's normalizing it to right. You're gonna do anything with me, this is what you get. Right? It's not we're not just tear fishing, right? I mean, they're these stories that people never tell. I asked people, one of the first questions I ask people is, why did you Why are you here? You know, like, how did you get here? Like literally for fishing, right? I mean, kind of start there, and then you build off of that. Right? But like, who got to fishing? How did you start fishing? Why are you fishing? You know, how long does that go into your family? And, you know, I think it's really it's a really neat gateway. Right? Kind of optic to get people to look intrinsically and reflect on a deeper level, which is is really cool and healthy, I think.
Gabaccia 18:15
Nice. Thanks so much. I love that the normalizing keeping the visibility you know, getting getting comfortable with sharing our, our pronouns, which I you know, like today. I meant to do that. Totally forgot. Hi, I'm Gabaccia she/her/ella.
Marco 18:41
He/him/his Marco. Yeah. Okay.
Gabaccia 18:47
Yeah, I recently added them to my profile. And then somebody put I think actually Serene, I see her here Serene posted on her story, something about like normalize saying your pronouns and making sure that people know what they are. And I was like, Yes, I need to do that. And I went to my profile, and they were already there. I was like, Okay, great. But you know, it's, it's, it's kind of like, I still have to think about it a little bit. And I just, but it's good to catch ourselves and to keep striving to normalize it and making sure that that we can enable the space for everyone and everyone feeling included, right? So why don't we why don't we get to it. So today for everyone who's been joining us in the past couple of minutes, we're talking about fly, well fishing fly fishing during the spawning season. So if you have any questions, you can type them on the chat, but you can also use that little question sticker and I think that helps us answer the questions a little in a more organized way. So, Marco, do you have an idea of how you want to start debriefing this or I throw a question?
Marco 19:58
Yeah, well. Let me just start here just on the this is a very controversial topic in the links. Number one right then. So I want to also say that I don't know everything right, from France, and I want to just repeat it right, we talked about it earlier, but for those that have joined us, you know, this is from my experience, and this is through my journey of analysis, right, and understanding and learning from other people. And so if somebody's, you know, listening to this, or, or somebody that reads something later, you know, I would love to, you know, challenging what I say, challenging what they bring to the table, and that's totally fine. And that's awesome, because it's part of learning. So I just want to start there. Because, yeah, it's, it's important, but out there, but shoot, shoot away with the questions.
Gabaccia 20:59
So I guess my first question is related to what you just said. So I, this is, this is something you know, so I've heard there's like, the kind of curious conservationists folks who are like, it's spawning season, put down a rod, and we don't even get close to the river. So that's like one way about it. And then the other way is, we can actually be out there fishing, we just need to be well informed. And understand what's happening and how we can do that responsibly. So in your experience, like, have you always been on the one side of the conversation, both sides, like what's, what's your perspective on those two sides, I guess.
Marco 21:51
And that's the thing, right is like, I've been on both sides. And I've heard on both sides. Right now I'll say I'm, I wouldn't say my rod, but I stay away. That's for sure. And I, I would, I would say I stay away with the rod. Right. So there's certain areas and so we'll get into the technical. Right? So typically, again, I'm speaking from Iowa, so in the driftless typically fish or trout, right? Brown trout and brook trout are the two species of trout in Iowa that are spawning right now. They're full spawners. Rainbow trout, cutthroat out best. And steelhead. Right? Are going to be spawning in the spring. And I can't test is it just varies it could start. I mean, you could in Michigan, you'll head start spawning in February. At the early they won't peak till about the beginning of April. And yeah, end of March, beginning of April, depending on the year. But anyway, that's right. So there's a spectrum, right. And there's also your spawning season that looks like arch right of activity, right? It kind of starts up and then it peaks, and then it comes down. So right now we're definitely on the uprise of activity. That week I posted a couple weeks ago, I posted that post about waiting. It's because my buddy messaged me and said "Hey, we saw the first reds today." Reds are the trout nest. So where a hen or a female will roll, they'll roll on their side and pat their tail on the gravel to make a little saucer shaped, like a bowl. And so that and they'll clear off all of the algae and the you know, anything that's on top of that gravel so they clean it off. That's why if you looked at the posts and we'll we'll I'll reshare it to this conversation, but I mentioned that reds look like glowing light, like bottom and so it's like in a dark area with a bunch of algae you know on top of the gravel typically you'll see us really really clean area that's any you know one feet wide and up to five feet long. I mean super long and that means multiple fish will actually spawn using that same area to spawn and put their eggs. So yeah, like understanding that and then having my buddy message me and tell me that, you know he did, they just saw the first ones of the season. It just gives, and this is part of it. Right? This is part of recreating responsively too, right? Is, is informing others, informing the community. I don't know people really arere like, “I don't want to tell anybody, because then you know, if I make it public then people might go and start, you know, snagging them, right “ So because these fish are very, very vulnerable during this time and they're they have one thing in mind. That's mating, reproducing, spawning. So, they are very concentrated on that and are very, very vulnerable as are many, many animals when they do. So, folks are scared and for good reason. I mean, there's a lot of people, I shouldn't say, there are people, right? How many, but there are people who will go out and take advantage of these, you know, vulnerable moments and, and take those. That's, I can't say that that's a bad thing. Right? However, in general, right, inherently, that's not a horrible thing, right? However, when you consider, right, the vulnerability of our and the fragility, right, of our some of these fisheries, that's when these things become more problematic, right? Now a problem can lead to problems right in the future. I don't necessarily put rods down you know, for good, but um, then something else, something I try. So in our rivers were a lot of our tributary streams that we fish two major river systems. And so sometimes what I'll do is I'll move to the lower sections of those creeks of those tributaries, where it's much less likely to find high densities of fish spawning in an area and, and are moved to the bigger river systems a lot less like this, what happens is the, those bigger thumbs are going to move into those tributaries to spawn and use those as nurseries for the most part, use biology, so, so very variable, but you know, you'll get fish that'll land the main river on there. So I just have to be aware of what you're looking for. And that being said, I actually mentioned that I would try to get some pics photos last weekend, this past weekend, the Fed actually wasn't able to I so again, because I'm still guiding at this moment, I have chosen I choose to cut my season short, even though I was open all year round, I I cut my season short during spawning, I am not not willing to do that. To take people you know, because literally a lot a lot of fish. If fish aren't spawning, other fish will follow those spawning fish to eat their eggs. And so it's really, again, problematic. I'm not I don't my choice, but I could have I could have people fishing, you know, around those fish and I can tell them where to cast and do all that stuff. But the reality is, I don't want to create a bad image for people and normalize these kinds of I'd rather normalize respect, right and farm the privilege that we have to like it for then. You, right? That's my perspective from a guide. Oh, yeah, I guess right now, that's kind of where I'm at. But I've also been on the other side where, you know, I like a thumbs up, you bet, right? And when we caught everything, it's as if there's nothing spawning, that fish, you know, that's their fault, right? We're gonna, and I was like, that's just how we grew up. Like I grew up like that. That's how we were taught. And so, that's a lot of spawning fish that we probably shouldn't have. But I just know. So I'm learning that you That that's, you know, not how that goes. And that also comes from right rim removal of knowledge of that area. Like if we, if we were, we were in our, our native land like and we had not been, you know, displaced, we would have enough, I would have grown up. But yeah. So...
Gabaccia 30:26
I think going, Yeah, and going back to - sorry, the video was paused. So there's a fish population, and then there's our population. So understanding, you know, if you live in an area where everyone is fishing, or a lot of people are fishing, then you have to, you have to understand that and act accordingly. You're not going to just show up to the river and take everything like you're the only person there. Right. So, like, so I totally understand that. That part. And yeah, also understanding that we're going to mess up and we're not going to be perfect. You know, like, I'm here admitting, like, last year, I had just zero idea of how to know where there's spawning, or, or that they were spawning, you know, and, and, and I'm now wondering, like, where could I have gotten my cues from, I wasn't even following that many anglers on Instagram, because I was fairly new to the, to the, to the tradition of fly fishing, and, you know, like, maybe when I went to the fly store, they couldn't. So, you know, that's just also something to consider, like, how, how we, as a community are communicating these things. Somebody awkward angler, she says, I just saw my first read this weekend heard of them, but never knew what they look like. So why don't we talk about that, like, what I think you already said what a red is, but maybe you want to reiterate that and then just guide us into like, what what to look for?
Marco 32:17
Yeah, so, um, reds are located on fallow and pretty shallow water, for the most part. And, and to be honest, if it's not waitable, and there's reds there, you don't necessarily need to worry about it that much, because you're not going to be walking over them anyway. So what you're kind of looking for, right, you, and that's why we do, it's really important for us to know where they are, is that we, we want to be careful about where we're stepping where we're waiting, because we step on top of these, the gravel that is holding these eggs or the babies trout, we could kill, we will kill them, they will die. And so you're now I mean, you know, if you have a red that's five on life and mentioned a little right, way, straight up of that red, you know, how many heirs, you know, of, you know, how many hands have came through, you know, female trout came through and laid laid their eggs and, you know, hundreds of thousands if not millions of done. But really, it can be really catastrophic. So, what they look like is like it's flowing like, I mean, so I don't know, if I'm able to add, you know, I'll show you a little bit better than I would, as far as, like complete drew some stuff. But I found some images like on Google Images. I don't know if I'm allowed to share those here.
Gabaccia 33:57
I think we can share them there for educational purposes. And we're not making any money here. So I think we're covered.
Marco 34:05
Right? That's what I thought but I just wasn't sure. Um,
Gabaccia 34:10
Yes, I think it will be super helpful if we can see a photo.
Marco 34:17
Or and you shared that thing with me but like I can't...
Gabaccia 34:21
So I think on the right corner, you should see a little square kind of like with the last image on your, on your library on your image library in your phone? No, oh.
Marco 34:34
For me. Okay, well, well. Maybe being...
Gabaccia 34:40
I feel you will be able to share them too. Because you know, where it says comment, and then there's like a couple of things. Do you see that?
Marco 34:49
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Say that one more time.
Gabaccia 34:55
So at the bottom of the screen, you know how it says comments. And then there's the questions. Do you see those things? The questions sticker? Oh, an airplane a face. No?
Marco 35:06
Yeah okay, so the share yes, the face and then the kind of the circle arrow thing, but nothing else. Those are the only three I see.
Gabaccia 35:16
Oh, what's the circle arrow thing?
Marco 35:18
Oh, maybe that's gonna show. Oh, that Oh, that is that.
Gabaccia 35:23
Nevermind. All right, oh, circle arrow thing now I know you're talking about. Okay, but just for reference for everybody, Marco has two great blog posts on his website. And I'll make sure I put it on the notes after we close and also in the chat, so everybody can go check it out and see photographs of what we're talking about right now.
Marco 35:46
I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna Google this real quick.
Gabaccia 35:50
And just show show from Yeah, sure. Hey, it's totally fine. Yeah, there's some really shitty photos out there. Google an idea of what they look like, with a good description because it's called red so, yeah, I when I thought red I also thought it was related to the color...
Marco 36:17
Let me try and show a few photos just to give variants here. So here's a bending on the edge of one. Okay, so here is the red. Okay, here's another one over here. And there's a little small one actually. Right. So yeah, fairly small. These one's these are huge. I mean, these are ginormous. I'm gonna guess that these are potentially from salmon or steelhead. Those don't look like trout reds. Trout reds are usually a lot like longer. I don't know. That's, that's just a guess. But yeah, those are pretty large. What you're gonna find actually, here's another one. So there's some trout right there. So I don't know if you can see how dark this gravel is here on the outside. But the inside here is a lot lighter. Right? So from afar, that's going to look like pretty stark change, just like a white spot. And so it looks like yeah, you got usually there's going to be a I don't, I can't tell I don't like to you know, fix fish on from a visual that's very variable that I yeah, it's hard to know, during spawning activity, it's a lot easier usually to tell because there's usually one hand in the middle and then a bunch of else that surround that one female waiting for that female to lay her eggs and then the all the other men will slim up and firm fertilize those eggs. Do you like anywhere from three to I've seen seven males trying to get in? Get in on the eyes. Sorry, I'm just kind of scrolling through and talking. Here's another one.
Gabaccia 38:10
You'll find a good one. Yeah, and these are very shallow places right? So they're not they should be fairly easy to spot.
Marco 38:17
Exactly. And here are a couple of brown trout and actually considering the angle of that trout right there that looks like that might even be a female. Usually the female is the larger one but that trout is definitely fanning. So, fanning means that what I mentioned earlier when the females will lay on their side and flap the gravel with their tail. That looks to me like what's happening right there. I hope these images are clear for you guys.
Gabaccia 38:53
Yeah, it's actually looking really good, I'm impressed and how sharply. At least I can see them.
Marco 39:00
So there's another one and I get these look to all be in really calm water which is great for imagery but I know you a lot of y'all are like outwest and so in really a lot faster water a lot of these look like Midwestern or eastern US creeks which again is probably a lot better for I think this is this is a one I have used before use it as an example so you can see again the kind of darker substrate on the side of substrate meaning the bottom and then that lighter area. I hope that that is helpful. Yeah, I don't know what's up.
Gabaccia 39:46
Yeah, absolutely. I'm I feel like now I'll probably notice them.
Marco 39:55
Here look like some steelhead. That's Definitely a steel head that the little bit of spots there makes me think it's a sea run cutthroat, but I don't see the slash. So I'm gonna say that's a, that's a steel head as well. And that's what fanning looks like, again, just another side before the red is created, right? So you can't even see to apply alert, but they're beginning that process. So that is very, so that's part of this conversation to film a camera back. That's a huge part of this conversation is understanding behavior. Right. So if you see and that's, that's the way so again, growing up in Michigan, I grew up fishing for steelhead. And so I got I was lucky enough to get to see a lot of bonding happen, and what it looks like and what the process kind of looks like what the dance looks like. It's pretty beautiful. It's pretty awesome to just, and that's the other thing, like, I don't I don't know, this is just just me, right? It's a very privileged perspective, I understand that not everyone gets to just put down their rod and, you know, go out now it's a choice, right? Everyone has that choice. But, you know, I think it's really awesome to sit down and just watch, just just enjoy it right and learn and it's really beautiful. But if you see a hand spawning, or hen fanning, right on our side, and you'll see, I mean, she'll flash a ton, right? It's, it's, there's no question as to what that fish is doing.
Gabaccia 41:33
Right? Do they do this, like, all day long? Are you saying like, no, it doesn't matter. Like, there's no, there's no, morning, nighttime, middle of the day for them?
Marco 41:51
It depends. And I think this is where I, the way I talk, the way I explained this is I think it has a lot to do with like, their knowledge, right? And the knowledge that they possess and how to do this properly, right? Because the younger fish are not going to know the you know, maybe do it at low light hours, right, in the dark at night, or in the protection of low light and so they're gonna get eaten by, you know, predators, osprey and eagles and stuff, but that's right? So, a lot of the younger fish less experienced are going to typically spawn during the, you know, more daylight hours, you will have a lot a lot a lot of us, so when you get cloud cover and it's low, low light, right darker days, that's when you're going to get most of most of the activity and because of protection and so and the largest fish the most mature fish, the oldest fish are going to spawn typically at night. So that's another really cool event to watch as well is not necessarily watching them at night. But if you wait until five minutes before dark. It is the same with hunting as well. The animals will typically come out with them 10 to 5 minutes before dark and you will just see big fish come out of the shadows of the banks or even from the deep hole and you'll see them come up onto the gravel. I mean pretty large, I mean relative right to your to your fishery or watershed and stuff but you know the largest fish probably, right? But yeah, so does that I hope that kind of uh.
Gabaccia 43:50
No, it does. It definitely it definitely did. And I'm excited to go try to find them just to watch them. That's I mean, you know, as a new angler going out there and seeing more fish than I catch is pretty normal. So I I have a lot of joy in just watching them chase my you know my flies and not eat them and stuff like that. I wouldn't mind at all to just to just be able to sit down and then kind of meditate while watching them, you know, go through their life cycle, which is kind of fascinating.So we talked about the reds and how to identify them, and understanding the behavior of the fish. What else do we need to know? Or do more research on on our end?
Marco 44:49
So fishing part aside, right? I would also right, so you kind of talked about the behavior, the behavior part is huge, right? Knowing where not to step, right, knowing what reds look like. Well is knowing this is a super super super important part. Sorry it paused for a bit, I thought I would wait. So this part is super, super important, because this is the least visible part of the whole process. And that's that these eggs actually take up to over two months, two to three months, to actually develop into baby fish, baby trout. And actually, for those trout actually leave the gravel. So leave the safety of the nest. And so those, you know, say for us here, right, we're just beginning of October was the first weekend of October was when we first saw our first reds here this year. Okay, so those fish like those babies will start to hatch, right? Or come leave the gravel, you know, say by the New Year, right, by the first of January, something like that, but the latest fish that will spawn, you know, middle, you know, as late as middle to end of November, we those those eggs and fry, you know, the little babies won't leave the gravel until the end of February into the middle of March. So this is a very, very long window that we need to be very mindful of. And I think a lot of a lot of babies get crushed. Because people think, oh, spawning is over, you know, what it's over, you know, that spawning is done the, you know, these fish anymore? And they think of them, ironically, you know, as though they're abandoned. Right, then that's a big, a lot, right? of, you know, these the older just abandon nest? Well, no, they're, they're the adults may be did you know abandon them, but the babies are still in there. And so being, yeah, mindful of that, that. You know, and what's, and what's really hard to this is really hard, is that a lot of these reds won't be super visible, right? By February and March, right? Algae grow on them, right? These you know, the reds will just seemingly disappear into the background of what was there before. And so something I would highly suggest, right, and this is part of, I think this is a really fun part, but it's also responsible part, right, of being an angler, is that, you know, we have the awesome privilege of technology now, right? Or even using a notebook, right, but like, you know, taking a map of any kind in March, where these reds are, when you're out fishing, by actually mark to them, actually, take note of where they are. So that you know, for next time, you know, that those they're still there. Right? And so just to be really careful and mindful of that as well. So yeah. I would say yeah, if there's one thing you may not find on a fishing platform of any kind around spawning, it's probably gonna be that. It's mind blowing.
Gabaccia 48:46
I know, right? It’s like spawning season just doubled or tripled.
Marco 48:53
Seriously? Yeah. Yeah. So and we'll talk about and this is the other crazy thing, too, right? It's just so it's insane to me, right? People are catching release and sustainability and this, that and the other. And then this isn't talked about. I'm like, how can you be proper catch and release, if there's nothing to catch? Right like and then that goes into my second blog posts recently, under this category of fall spawning was around the use of eggs. And so we can get now into the fishing part of this, right?
Gabaccia 49:33
Yes, let's do that.
Marco 49:37
Um, and so, you know, the, the reality and again, right, the best way to then, you know, most sustainable and the most ethical way to do this is Oh, there we go, yeah, Jake has an awesome, awesome tip to call a local coffee shop and in the area and ask, that's really really great idea.
Gabaccia 50:01
Awesome.
Marco 50:02
Um, yeah, so understanding kind of how to go about this right? So the best way to do it is to not fish at all. But not everyone is going to do that. Right? And to be honest, I wouldn't say that you necessarily have to, I mean, it's not going to destroy the fishery, if you go out and fish during this time. Now, choosing the fish that you target, right, and that that goes by the type that you target. That's, that is where this line is drawn. And so staying away from those shallow areas, right waiting, the, you know, I would say no, or deeper is probably best. And again, just being aware of that bottom and choosing a non gravel bottom to cross in. And right. And it's in front of the unexperienced waiter that can be a bit challenging. Especially because, you know, a hard sand bottom is hard can be hard to find in some of the rivers that people fish. I especially in the Midwest, growing up here, there's a lot of silty banks. Yeah? My son just got back from a walk. So...
Gabaccia 51:22
Nice.
Marco 51:44
Looks like it paused for a second again.
Gabaccia 51:48
We're back.
Marco 51:51
Okay, so seeing fish actively spawning is actually a really good sign that you should be fishing below them. Because all of the eggs that get dropped into those reds actually make it and stay in the reds. And so a lot of the, the, you know, some of them are going to you know, not are going to flow into the, into the stream of the river. And so those eggs out there, unfortunately, goners, they're not going to have there. Even if they're fertilized they're not seated into the gravel and they're not going to have a place to incubate and go through that process. So fish even of the same species, right other trout are going to capitalize on that high super super protein. Actually, as they prepare for the winter. It's a really great, you know, even others, other aquatic biota are also going to capitalize on these leeches. A lot of leeches will eat the eggs, salamanders. You know? You know a bunch of other things and actually you can see and then really really good fisheries like high populations of fish in the eddies and the slow parts along the banks. You can actually see on the bottom you may even see white, the white eggs because they'll turn different colors as they know the less fresh they are the more fresh they are the more red and the more orange they are. Right? The time they spend outside of the body of the fish they will turn peach and you know and then white. And so you'll see a lot of those eggs kind of yeah on the banks are on the bottom by the banks. But fish will continue to eat them. So targeting those holes right in Michigan, all them buckets. So you can get huge gravel flat, huge or like hundreds of yards long sometimes. And you'll see salmon or steelhead or trout spawning on the gravel well in the in the middle of those gravel buckets, by your chute where it gets super deep, and it's you can't see the bottom, and then it'll come right back up, and then you'll get gravel again, right? And so in those buckets, there's usually going to be a lot of, you know, other, there's going to be a lot of fish eating those eggs. And also, some males that are probably going to be waiting, their turn, you know, to come up in spawn is, you know, into their, to their, their dance as well. And they're going to be capitalizing on those eggs. You know deep bends, right, downstreams of those, there's going to be a lot, you know that's a great staging area for fish that aren't ready to spawn. And so those fishes will be fresher as well typically, than the ones you're going to find in the buckets. The bucket fishes kind of the prestage to the action. Right? The bend fish, right, the deeper, really deep holes are going to be staging fish that are just not quite ready yet. Right? They came in either from downstream or from the lake or from the ocean. Right? You know up to spawn and they just got in anywhere a day ago to a week ago, so they're still fairly fresh. And so the fishes that would be more receptive to the fly So being mindful of that as well.
Gabaccia 56:14
And those, those will be closer to the gravel.
Marco 56:18
Correct. Correct.
Gabaccia 56:19
Will they stay around watching the red?
Marco 56:24
Okay. Yeah, so you can, that's the other thing too, if you can see a fish don't pass at it. But I have a pretty yeah, it's a pretty good rule. If you can see a fish don't pass it. Because either that yeah, the spawn. And that's the other thing too, from a bioenergetic standpoint. Like, these fish are very vulnerable after they spawn. Post spawners are very, very vulnerable because they've just expended a ton of energy on spawning. And so now they have to, and I have to, I'm sure there's data out there and research out there that talks about this a little bit but here in Iowa I have a pretty strong like I guess hypothesis, I guess, at the fact that you know, where do fish decided to stay over winter. Right? Do, really really high calorie, right, intakes, and they need a lot of calories. Right? And, so if they had a really my theory is that if they had a really hard and rough spawning season, then they're probably going to be in the smaller crease, where they can benefit from the thermal refuge found waters of groundwater-dominated environment, right for higher thermal temperatures over the winter, where they're going to last less, you know, less bugs and less right other fish to eat. Their bodies are stagnant, they're not losing weight a ton, they can at least maintain weight. Whereas those large fish that put on weight preseason, right, we're able to handle the spawn a little bit better and are now able to go back to those larger systems and capitalize off of larger calories. Larger, you know because they are _________, they eat other fish. That's also part of my game and how I find some of the larger fishes, taking into consideration some of those factors, I typically try to stay away from the smaller creeks up by the heads of those creeks for several months after the spawn. A bit creek bound just because, right, of that theory, right. That's my theory. I don't.
Gabaccia 59:07
Yeah, well, but you're there and you're observing. So and I think that's something that is not appreciated enough in our culture, the fact that, you know, our own personal experiences are knowledge and they are valid especially if you've been around enough to observe through several seasons in one same river. Hello friend.
Marco 59:27
Hola!!!
Gabaccia 59:28
Hola hola. So! I actually think Instagram is gonna kick us out in like 30 seconds. So I just want to thank you Marco so much for joining me today. Everybody go check out Xicanxfly and check out his website so that you can see some more photos of the fish of the eggs, the gravel, the reds and all the things that we learned about today. We'll - I’ll try to put together a recap post just to do some actionable items from all the wonderful tips that you gave us today.
